Terni Carcano Rifle Serial Numbers
Terni Carcano Rifle Serial Numbers 7,5/10 9156 reviews
- Terni Carcano Rifle Serial Numbers
- Terni Carcano Serial Numbers
- Terni Rifle Markings
- Terni Rifle Serial Numbers
Italian serial numbers marking system
It would help to understand the foreign marking system on military
weapons
The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
manufacturing plant, etc. It began with a three digit serial
number,
progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began
a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the
alphabet - A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc.This system can be better understood by
looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
in Feb. 1963.
See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain, since there
were hundreds of rifles with the same serial numbers however, the
prefix would be different. The FBI did locate a rifle with the serial
number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.
The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, in
Montreal Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used
Italian rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156
was furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the
FBI:
THE ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines
received by Century Arms, Inc. from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears
on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 #
13 Warren Report. It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have
identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I suspect
was done in Dallas to frame LHO)
Sylvia Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time,
didn't understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.
By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on
the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John
in Arlington, VA has four Carcanos and two serial
numbers are on the receiver, two on the barrel.
There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos
were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni
may not have been made there. They could have been made in a small
plant elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in
small plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name.
Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the
manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock so the Italian troops knew
what ammo to use.
I suggest the purchase of two books. Anyone interested in the rifle
should get these books. There are hundreds of ads and they can be
seen in the book, THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON. The book was produced by
Gary Nivaggi, in Dec. 1994. In the late 50's and early 60's, many
varieties, styles and calibers of the MC rifles were offered at low
prices.
The book contains questions regarding the MC, various ammo loads for
it, its clip, and other great information about the stopping and
'knockdown' capabilities of firearm projectiles. All from the pages of
American Rifleman.
Many questions being asked on the posts will all be answered if you
own THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON.
Another book that will provide valuable information that comes from a
real expert on the Carcano: Richard Hobbs, 3958 Cambridge Rd. # 162,
Cameron Park, CA 95682.
Last E-mail I had was
fuc..@innercite.com. Hobbs is a collector of Carcanos since 1945 and
may know more about the weapon than anyone in this country.
His book: THE CARCANO Italy's Military Rifle. (Was about $18.00) He
is not a JFK 'BUFF.'- but he sure knows that weapon.
If you own these two books, you will hardly ever have a serious
question about the Carcano again.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Carcano Potpourri !!!!!!!
Adam Consolidated (CRESCENT FIREARMS) :
'Three American firms entered the competition for the 91s that the
Italian Defense Ministry was selling. Adam Consolidated, in
conjunction with the Feldsott brothers, won the bidding with a total
offer of $ 1,776,OOO for the approximately 570,000 guns.'
'.. Some 5300 kilos (approx. 1200 Pounds) of parts were included
in the contract price. Adam also purchased 2,608,704 rounds of
ammunition, which were picked up and paid for as items sepatate from
the surplus weapons, on three occasions.'
Aug. 8, 1960 ..........653,176 cartridges 6.5 mm
July 31, 1961.......... 1,304,352 same
June 6, 1962 ........... 652,176 same
The price was $13.57 per thousand, or somewhat more than a penny per
bullet. '
From: THE GUN - Henry S. Bloomgarden
Apparently, thousands of these Italian rifles were sold in the US
before Cresent won the above bid. Klein's was selling the 7.35 mm as
early as the spring of 1958
In this ad of 4-58, the MANNLICHER HIGH POWER RIFLE sold for $12.95 -
Good outside, very good inside. A very good outside: Excellent inside
sold for $14.95 and an Excellent inside and outside cost $16.95. For
98 cents, a leather sling was available and a cleaning rod cost 79
cents. Military ammo in clips of six-12 for 98 cents- 48 for $2.98.
The following month - the same ad, but the sling and rod were included
free.
From 7- 58 until 10 - 60, Klein's did not advertise any MCs. Then,
in 10 - 60 appeared their ad for the CUSTOM SPORTERIZED MODEL for
$19.88.
In 3-62 the 6.5 mm was advertised for $11.88. AMERICAN RIFLEMAN .
In 1958, Congressman Morano was pleading : 'Let's find out where
some of these Carcano rifles have gone.'
Macy's and Sears Roebuck, as well as sporting supply stores,
discount stores and Army-and-Navy-surplus stores sold the weapon and
the ammo.
Some of these guns came from Finland:
'During the first winter of the war with Russia, Findland procured
from Sweden approximately 15,000 Swedish 6.5 mm M 96 Mausers and 6.5
mm ammunition which Findland decided to manufacture for these weapons
during WW II. Findland received, in addition, a supply of Italian M38,
7.35 mm carbines via Germany during WW II. Both weapons saw limited
service as they were relegated to use by the stationary troops, such
as guards on bridges, airfields, railways, waterworks, etc. Today, the
greater portion of the M 38 carbines Findland received can be traced
to the U.S. market as surplus war goods.'
FROM- BOOK OF RIFLES
It would help to understand the foreign marking system on military
weapons
The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
manufacturing plant, etc. It began with a three digit serial
number,
progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began
a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the
alphabet - A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc.This system can be better understood by
looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
in Feb. 1963.
See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain, since there
were hundreds of rifles with the same serial numbers however, the
prefix would be different. The FBI did locate a rifle with the serial
number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.
The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, in
Montreal Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used
Italian rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156
was furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the
FBI:
THE ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines
received by Century Arms, Inc. from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears
on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 #
13 Warren Report. It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have
identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I suspect
was done in Dallas to frame LHO)
Sylvia Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time,
didn't understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.
By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on
the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John
in Arlington, VA has four Carcanos and two serial
numbers are on the receiver, two on the barrel.
There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos
were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni
may not have been made there. They could have been made in a small
plant elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in
small plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name.
Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the
manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock so the Italian troops knew
what ammo to use.
I suggest the purchase of two books. Anyone interested in the rifle
should get these books. There are hundreds of ads and they can be
seen in the book, THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON. The book was produced by
Gary Nivaggi, in Dec. 1994. In the late 50's and early 60's, many
varieties, styles and calibers of the MC rifles were offered at low
prices.
The book contains questions regarding the MC, various ammo loads for
it, its clip, and other great information about the stopping and
'knockdown' capabilities of firearm projectiles. All from the pages of
American Rifleman.
Many questions being asked on the posts will all be answered if you
own THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON.
Another book that will provide valuable information that comes from a
real expert on the Carcano: Richard Hobbs, 3958 Cambridge Rd. # 162,
Cameron Park, CA 95682.
Last E-mail I had was
fuc..@innercite.com. Hobbs is a collector of Carcanos since 1945 and
may know more about the weapon than anyone in this country.
His book: THE CARCANO Italy's Military Rifle. (Was about $18.00) He
is not a JFK 'BUFF.'- but he sure knows that weapon.
If you own these two books, you will hardly ever have a serious
question about the Carcano again.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Carcano Potpourri !!!!!!!
Adam Consolidated (CRESCENT FIREARMS) :
'Three American firms entered the competition for the 91s that the
Italian Defense Ministry was selling. Adam Consolidated, in
conjunction with the Feldsott brothers, won the bidding with a total
offer of $ 1,776,OOO for the approximately 570,000 guns.'
'.. Some 5300 kilos (approx. 1200 Pounds) of parts were included
in the contract price. Adam also purchased 2,608,704 rounds of
ammunition, which were picked up and paid for as items sepatate from
the surplus weapons, on three occasions.'
Aug. 8, 1960 ..........653,176 cartridges 6.5 mm
July 31, 1961.......... 1,304,352 same
June 6, 1962 ........... 652,176 same
The price was $13.57 per thousand, or somewhat more than a penny per
bullet. '
From: THE GUN - Henry S. Bloomgarden
Apparently, thousands of these Italian rifles were sold in the US
before Cresent won the above bid. Klein's was selling the 7.35 mm as
early as the spring of 1958
In this ad of 4-58, the MANNLICHER HIGH POWER RIFLE sold for $12.95 -
Good outside, very good inside. A very good outside: Excellent inside
sold for $14.95 and an Excellent inside and outside cost $16.95. For
98 cents, a leather sling was available and a cleaning rod cost 79
cents. Military ammo in clips of six-12 for 98 cents- 48 for $2.98.
The following month - the same ad, but the sling and rod were included
free.
From 7- 58 until 10 - 60, Klein's did not advertise any MCs. Then,
in 10 - 60 appeared their ad for the CUSTOM SPORTERIZED MODEL for
$19.88.
In 3-62 the 6.5 mm was advertised for $11.88. AMERICAN RIFLEMAN .
In 1958, Congressman Morano was pleading : 'Let's find out where
some of these Carcano rifles have gone.'
Macy's and Sears Roebuck, as well as sporting supply stores,
discount stores and Army-and-Navy-surplus stores sold the weapon and
the ammo.
Some of these guns came from Finland:
'During the first winter of the war with Russia, Findland procured
from Sweden approximately 15,000 Swedish 6.5 mm M 96 Mausers and 6.5
mm ammunition which Findland decided to manufacture for these weapons
during WW II. Findland received, in addition, a supply of Italian M38,
7.35 mm carbines via Germany during WW II. Both weapons saw limited
service as they were relegated to use by the stationary troops, such
as guards on bridges, airfields, railways, waterworks, etc. Today, the
greater portion of the M 38 carbines Findland received can be traced
to the U.S. market as surplus war goods.'
FROM- BOOK OF RIFLES
This particular firearm, serial number C2766, was made at the Royal Arms Factory in Terni and was manufactured in 1940. It’s chambered in 6.5x52mm — a cartridge invented in the late 1800s. This firearm has been oddly designated “Mannlicher Carcano” because of some features similar to Mannlicher’s firearms. That seems to be a Fucile 91/41, probably reworked post-war (hence the discrepancy between butt and barrel numbers), sporterized and rechambered to 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer with British civilian proof for use as a hunting rifle. The M-S is a good cartridge, but is now probably more difficult to find than Carcano ammo (which is made by PRVI). The rifle, made in the Terni arsenal in 1940 and bearing the serial number C2766, was equipped for an extra $7 with a new 4x18 Japanese telescopic sight, on a sheet metal side mount. It was later scrutinized by local police, the FBI, the U. Army, and two federal commissions. The top of the flat says TERNI, The right says 1930 VIII, and the right side flat says FP. The left flat says G5 243 (serial number?, and the left side flat has an oval stamp that probably is an identification mark, that is identifiable if I knew what it was. Kia diagnostic software free download. The M1891/41 rifle was only manufactured at two arsenals, R.E. Terni (aka Terni, FAT) from 1941 to 1945 and Armaguerra Cremona from 1941 to 1944. Collector's Comments and Feedback: 1. Most of the Carcano 1891/41 rifles encountered on the surplus market today were imported to North America in the 1960's.
1941 Model 1891/41 Carcano Infantry Rifle (marked for accuracy)(Modello M91/41 Fucile Tiro a Segno Nazionale)
(Click PIC to Enlarge)
Originally Posted by :
Caliber: ............ 6.5 x 52mm Carcano
Rifling & Twist: ....... 4 groove, right hand twist.
Barrel Length: ........ 27.2 in. (692mm)
Overall Length: ....... 46 in. (1168 mm)
Weight: ............ 8.5 lbs. (3.9kg)
Magazine Capacity: .... 6
Qty Mfg: ............ Armageurra Cremona - 240,000
.................. Fabbrica Armi di Terni - 580,000
Source: ............ The Carcano: Italy's Military Rifle by Hobbs, Richard J. C1996, 2nd ed. 1997, surplusrifle.com
Carcano Model Identification
1941 Model 1891/41 Carcano Infantry Rifle
(53 picture virtual tour)
Caliber: ............ 6.5 x 52mm Carcano
Rifling & Twist: ....... 4 groove, right hand twist.
Barrel Length: ........ 27.2 in. (692mm)
Overall Length: ....... 46 in. (1168 mm)
Weight: ............ 8.5 lbs. (3.9kg)
Magazine Capacity: .... 6
Qty Mfg: ............ Armageurra Cremona - 240,000
.................. Fabbrica Armi di Terni - 580,000
Source: ............ The Carcano: Italy's Military Rifle by Hobbs, Richard J. C1996, 2nd ed. 1997, surplusrifle.com
Carcano Model Identification
1941 Model 1891/41 Carcano Infantry Rifle
(53 picture virtual tour)
Observations: (by 'Claven2')
Note: Pics of rifle provided courtesy of Milsurps.com moderator Claven2.
Terni Carcano Rifle Serial Numbers
Following France's adoption of the Model 1886 Lebel and its accompanying revolutionary small-bore, high velocity 8mm Lebel cartridge, the whole of Europe (and indeed the world) jumped into an arms race to replace their huge inventories of older, often single-loaded, large caliber, low velocity arms. Italy was no exception. In the late 1880's, the Italian were mostly equipping their armed forces with the venerable M1870 and M1870/87 Vetterli(-Vitali)s and they were no match for the newer high-velocity repeating rifles. Sensibly, a replacement was sought and a commission was formed to exhaustively test proposed replacement arms.
In 1891, the commission decided to combine an Italian state factory rifle model made by the Torino factory with the German Mod. 1888 charger-loaded central magazine of Mannlicher origin and to pay Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher the appropriate royalties (300,000 Lire). The new Modelo 1891 Fucile incorporated a gain twist barrel to reduce throat erosion when using Cordite and the early Dynamit Nobel propellants which burned excessively hot. Improvements in propellant design would render this feature unnecessary on future models.
At the time of its adoption, the Carcano was a revolutionary rifle. It had, at the time, the smallest caliber of any military rifle and held six shots in a rapidly changeable charger clip, while most of its contemporaries used either a tubular magazine of a 5 round charger clip. It was robust and the bolt could be disassembled without any tools. The Carcano M1891 gave excellent service throughout the First Word War where Italy participated on the Allied side, fighting mainly against Austria.
By the time of the Second World War, not much about the Carcano had changed. Some shorter versions of the Carcano rifle were in service and the rapid onset of the war had shelved Italy's plans to update the rifle's caliber to 7,35x51. Despite the fact that the older M1891 infantry rifle was mostly being replaced by M1891/38 series carbines, performance in North African campaigns convinced fascist Italy to begin manufacturing the longer type infantry rifle once more. This led to the adoption of the M1891/41 Fucile as pictured above. Aside from a more compact rear sight, standard non-progressive rifling, and a barrel slightly shorter than the older infantry rifle, the 1941 adaptation is little changed from the pre-WW1 era weapon - it was even issued with the same bayonet.
Unlike in the first world war, Italy did not issue scoped sniper rifles during the Second World War for sniping. Instead, those rifles demonstrating above average accuracy were stamped with the Tiro a Segno Nazionale marking consisting of two crossed rifles superimposing a bulls-eye target stamped on barrel. The best marksmen in Italian units were able to select from these more accurate rifles to act in the sniping role in the field. The above rifle is one such example and the marking can be seen in the gallery on the barrel shank.
Two patterns of sling were commonly issued with the 1941 version of the Infantry rifle. The first pattern is virtually identical to a WW1 era sling with tear-dropped shaped eye holes and brass stud keepers. The second type is a close copy of the German K98k sling as depicted on the above rifle.
The M1891/41 rifle was only manufactured at two arsenals, R.E. Terni (aka Terni, FAT) from 1941 to 1945 and Armaguerra Cremona from 1941 to 1944.
Terni Carcano Serial Numbers
Collector's Comments and Feedback:1.
Terni Rifle Markings
Most of the Carcano 1891/41 rifles encountered on the surplus market today were imported to North America in the 1960's. After the Second World War, Italy refurbished most of the rifles in store only to surplus most of them without ever being re-issued when they adopted the M1 Garand and various modifications of that rifle based on NATO calibers. Unscrupulous importers and dealers in those years sold many Carcanos as 'axis mausers' and bent the bolt handles to more closely resemble German rifles of the WW2 era. Many, if not most Infantry Rifle Carcanos encountered today will have these bent bolts. A bent bolt in an Infantry Rifle is not a desired trait by collectors. Carbine versions of the Carcano, however, usually had bent bolts and should not be seen as detrimental to value.Most carcanos refurbished in the later years of service in Italy will be a mixed bag of parts with blonde looking stocks, poor blueing jobs, and many markings scrubbed out. Earlier and even late war refurbished rifles, however, often retain most of their original parts. Sometimes, as is the case with this rifle, the original stock was retained and re-stamped matching over the old serial numbers after refurbishment. Dark stain was applied to the beech-wood to make the stock less visible in the field and most original markings are still visible. Such rifles are invariably more sought after than the later, more crudely refurbished examples. Unrefurbished Carcanos are really quite rare rifles and will command a premium over refurbished examples if the condition is good. Most unrefurbished rifles encountered, however, will show considerable wear and abuse.
Rifles should be examined for the Tiro a Segno Nazionale marking mentioned above. Such rifles are exceedingly uncommon compared to a normal infantry rifle and are the closest thing to a scoped sniper rifle that Italy issued in the second world war. While Carcanos in general are not generally expensive surplus rifles today, future markets will certainly dictate a large premium for the TSN marked examples.
Despite gunshow lore, the Carcano is/was an excellent and robust rifle for its day and is perfectly safe to fire if in good condition. Stories of its inaccuracy are mostly attributed to undersized bullets in 1960's era sporting ammunition - a concern not valid today with correctly dimensioned ammunition and components available. Like the Arisaka, the Carcano has proved not to be the weak-actioned pariahs they were once thought to be. Somewhat poorly constructed parts rifles in the 1960's and earlier with dubiously attached barrels sold through chains like Sears, Bannerman's and Eatons likely contributed to this undeserved infamy.
Collectors should be on the lookout for original Italian slings which are very rare today - usually costing more than the rifle. Bayonets are also priced high as most do not survive today, having been melted for scrap when the rifles were surplused.